COACHING IN CHILD WELFARE
EXAMPLE INTERVIEW 1

Speaker 1:	Okay. So, you want to let me know what it is that's on your mind. In fact, I take it back, before we get started, let's just ... It's been a really long day, and a lot going on. So maybe let's take a minute and take a deep breath and leave our busy day behind us and get started.

Speaker 2:	Okay. So yeah, my 16-year-old James on my case load, I've been working with him since he was eight. I'm really worried about his safety currently. He seems to be really escalating in his behavior. He's been suspended from school, like five or six times over the last seven months. He's been smoking pot. He skipped school the other day, got so drunk at the park, that his friends actually called 911, and he was taken to the hospital.

Speaker 1:	Okay. 

Speaker 2:	I'm not sure we can maintain him in his foster home. I'm not sure it's the right level of care for him at this point just because I don't know if we can make him safe. I just need a little bit of help with what to do. I'm not sure where to go from here.

Speaker 1:	Okay. Tell me a little bit more about when this behavior started and when and if there was a shift in his behavior.

Speaker 2:	Well he's 16. He's struggled since he was about 14, and he's always had some behavioral pieces to him. I want to say it's really been the last eight months. His brother, he and his brother were separated, and they got placed back together, and that seemed to help a little while. But their other brother who's not been in foster care got placed with a relative. So I don't know if that's what triggered some of this for him. They don't seem to be that close. They haven't had a lot of contact over the years. So it would seem like an odd trigger.

Speaker 1:	All right. So you've got this situation where your kiddo has been in the home for how long now?

Speaker 2:	He's been in this home ... I've had him since he was eight. He's been in this home for six years. 

Speaker 1:	Wow. Okay. So six years. And about two years ago, some new behavior started manifesting. There's been some transition between being placed with and without a brother. But around eight months ago, the behavior started to concern you more. 

Speaker 2:	Yes. That's where there was a spike in just sort of oppositional defiant kind of stuff. That's where it seemed to really peak and sort of sustain. He always had bits of it, but he would get really mad and frustrated, and then act out, and then it would sort of relax. But there's been sustained use. That's really the other concern. There's sustained use. It's not only he's leaving in the middle of the night, and he's running away, but to get so drunk in the middle of the day that you passed out and couldn't wake up, and that your friend was so scared that they called 911 knowing that there was a risk of you getting in trouble for this. 

Speaker 1:	Right. 

Speaker 2:	That's the level of concern that I'm really struggling with. 

Speaker 1:	And you started off by saying that you're not convinced that he can maintain in his foster place and that's the right level of care.

Speaker 2:	Right.

Speaker 1:	So tell me a little bit more about that. Tell me more about your worries about his placement, and how they have and maybe have not met his needs to date.

Speaker 2:	I do think they care about him. They work with teenage boys a lot. So sort of one of the things they do, is they I think enjoy that age because there's less necessarily oversight, so to speak. You don't have to be as nurturing. But they took James when he was really young, which was really surprising.

Speaker 1:	Right.

Speaker 2:	And then they do ... The foster mom, James can be a little argumentative, and she is not the strongest of people. So she will oftentimes call me and say that James is doing this, and it's like okay, what's going on, what have you tried.

Speaker 1:	Right.

Speaker 2:	And then sometimes it's just a matter of having someone else talk to him and just hearing him. But because this spike in really sort of self harming behaviors, that's my concern about how do we keep him safe in the least restrictive environment.

Speaker 1:	Yeah. So what kind of conversations have you had with James about this?

Speaker 2:	A lot of different kinds of conversations. He tends to sort of ... what's the word I'm looking for? Just sort of push back. A little bit of eh, it's not a big deal. So minimizing quite a bit. I've told him I'm really worried about him. I've asked him what's going on, what's really happening. He'll say nothing, and I basically say that's not true. I've known him for a long time, so I feel I can be pretty real with him. But there's something that's keeping him from either being real with me or being real with himself. I'm not sure. I can't quite figure out what that is. 	But I've even said to him, I'm so worried about you, I don't know if you can be in this environment where you can't be safe. 

Speaker 1:	Right. How did he respond to that?

Speaker 2:	Sort of ... I couldn't really gauge him. I feel like he's disconnected from a lot of things, and that's, I think what worries me. 

Speaker 1:	Okay. So when you think about paths forward with him, what are some ideas you have on how to reconnect with him?

Speaker 2:	That's a really good question because he's getting harder and harder to engage with. I think spending some one on one time with him, maybe not around anything ... Kids get so used to okay, you're going to come in, and you're going to check on me, and we're going to talk about my problems, my issues at school. 

Speaker 1:	All the normal stuff.

Speaker 2:	You go through the perfunctory, yeah, stuff. Maybe it just needs to be let's go play basketball.

Speaker 1:	Yeah. 

Speaker 2:	Let's go do something that has nothing to do with this sort of social work thing, or this foster child thing, so that he can feel that there's just a relationship and someone cares about him. Maybe we can do that. That might be a way to connect with him differently.

Speaker 1:	What are some ways that you connect with him initially? Like you've been with him now for eight years. What were some of the things that earned your trust from him in the first place? 

Speaker 2:	I think just being real. I think being genuine with him. I think when he acts like a jerk, I've told him he's being like a jerk. But I also listen to him. So that if he's really angry and upset, I hear him. And then I'm able to still say okay, I hear you, and what do you need to do differently about that, and yeah, you sound really upset, yet these are the rules. So there's a compromise here. I spent time with him outside of his room and checking in, sort of get to know you, just like tell me about you, tell me about your dreams, tell me about what you want to be, how are you going to get there, what's your plan. 	
So there was this opportunity to focus on just being James and not having to be this foster kid who has a social worker who's just going to come ask me those questions.

Speaker 1:	Well what do you think has shifted in your practice that might have got you back to being more that perfunctory, checking in on him, asking those normal questions and so forth?

Speaker 2:	Probably eight years. 

Speaker 1:	Eight years of ... Yeah.

Speaker 2:	I think eight years, you sort of ... I think you just get into a grove, and sometimes you forget about that, and then the more crisis driven he is, and then of course, the more you're responding. You're having to ... I shouldn't say you. I'm feeling like I have to identify a plan quickly because we have to think about what we're going to do for him and what's safest for him. So I think that might take some of the intention away from being able to just connect to him.

Speaker 1:	So that's an excellent idea about being intentional about spending time with just James, the kid, not James the foster kid, like doing that through a game of basketball. When do you think you could reengage him in that way or attempt to reconnect in that way? 

Speaker 2:	Well I see him on Thursdays generally. So we can do that in a couple days. I could just take that moment and do that, and commit to doing that regardless of whatever is going on and making sure we're spending that, at least an hour and a half or so just not talking about all these other things that we sort of have to talk about.

Speaker 1:	That would be a great use of your time. The other thing you mentioned though, and I just want to revisit it though because this was sort of a multi-pronged concern of yours is worrying about whether the foster placement is providing the appropriate level of care for him. I just wanted to get additional thoughts around that from you in terms of what if anything you think the foster parent could be doing differently to meet his needs?

Speaker 2:	Well I think I'm less worried about how the foster parent is doing it and in general, the fact that we can't expect them to be ... It's not the same as institutionalized care. It's not 24/7 safety thing. He's a teenager. He's allowed to have some space. He needs to have some space. At the same time, if he's sneaking out the window at night, and we put an alarm on the window, there's only so much we can do. 

Speaker 1:	Right. 

Speaker 2:	So I think it's just balancing what are the things that we can try and they're open to those things. It's about what sort of is the next place for him. I feel like I owe him that to say if you get here, then you've gone too far.

Speaker 1:	Sort of a line in the sand as it were.

Speaker 2:	Yeah, I think you need to know you're skirting that right now with the drinking and ... Not so much the marijuana use, but the drinking is really concerning to me. I mean he drank a fifth of vodka. 

Speaker 1:	Yeah.

Speaker 2:	He's like 95 pounds. He's a skinny guy as it is.

Speaker 1:	What do you think that line in the sand would be to help prepare him for that conversation?

Speaker 2:	Well, I think definitely we have to think about self harm because that creates an assessment. I think letting him know that he takes away his choices. When you end up having to be assessed by someone else for self harm, you lose your choices, and maybe that's what he needs permission to do is say I can't control myself right now. So maybe just being able to let him know what those options are and what those boundaries are. 

Speaker 1:	What kind of assessments have you done to him to date, in terms of substance abuse? 

Speaker 2:	Sure. He's had a substance abuse one, and he has to pee in a cup every week, and sometimes he refuses to do that. But he's not juvenile ... he's not got any juvenile justice probationary pieces to that. It was really more concern about self harm sort of things. And then he's had lots of therapy. He's graduated therapy. I don't think he'd be in a space to be open to going back right now. I think he feels pretty cornered in lots of ways, so that's not going to help. He's done group before. So he's had a lot of different things. It's just the substance abuse one is the current one. 	He did have ... I mean I can't talk with him about having a depression screening again just because of the fact that his behavior makes me really concerned about how he values himself.

Speaker 1:	Yeah. Then what kind of placement have you thought about in terms of, if you felt he crossed the line in the sand, what do you think that next step would be that would meet his needs appropriately and keep him safer?

Speaker 2:	I hate to even say it because I still see him as this eight year old boy. I do think it would be worth considering at least something that would address any of the treatment ... So if he needs to have ongoing substance abuse treatment, then that makes sense that we would put him in an environment where they can actually address some of those underlying needs that we might be able to get to, in addition to addressing his safety. If it's something else, then I'd want to make sure that was taken care of. If we've got co disorders going on, then whatever is going to keep him safest first. 	So I don't know that that would be my lane, so to speak. I'd maybe defer to the therapist for that.

Speaker 1:	Okay. So it seems like moving forward that we kind of have a plan here in stages. You've got spending time with James, playing basketball, or doing something he enjoys and reconnecting, and seeing what you as his specialist for the past eight years, can find out about what's going on with him. We also have a discussion you can have with him about your line in the sand, and where his behavior might go, what might have to happen if that line crosses. We also have the idea of maybe doing some additional assessments with him to screen for depression. And then you have this idea that if this line in the sand gets crossed, there's a couple of treatment ideas that you can pursue with a therapist. So how comfortable do you feel with that plan of action? 

Speaker 2:	I feel like it's doable. I feel really comfortable with that. I want to make sure that I'm tending to his needs. So I'm good with that.

Speaker 1:	And we talked about being able to get in a meeting with him next week, right? 

Speaker 2:	No, actually this week. I can meet with him on Thursday. 

Speaker 1:	Okay. And then how can we follow up to see how that went and look at our next steps forward? 

Speaker 2:	Well, I think we can maybe do a check in phone call and see from there and see where we are. 

Speaker 1:	When would you like to give me a call? 

Speaker 2:	Why don't we do early next week? That gives me a chance to work with him a little bit and work that out. 

Speaker 1:	So Monday morning? 

Speaker 2:	Yeah, that works.

Speaker 1:	Sounds good. I just want to also check in and see helpful, if it was helpful, this conversation was to find a path forward for you. 

Speaker 2:	Well I think it was really helpful. I was struggling with what I needed to do in order to assess this for him. I think reconnecting with him was something I had thought of, but not necessarily given much thought to. So just being able to process, and the questions you asked helped me get there and help me realize oh yeah, I really do need to do that. That's important. So I think walking through those steps helped me get that aha piece back for myself. 

Speaker 1:	Cool. As we continue to work through this, is there anything I can do that might be more helpful to you or anything you'd like me to do differently?

Speaker 2:	No, I think just continue to check in and just continue to help ask those questions that help me get there would be all I think right now. 

Speaker 1:	And then the feedback I would give you in terms of your relationship with James and moving forward is you have a really strong connection with him and maybe trust your instincts in terms of how you reconnect with him. That was your idea that you brought forward, not mine. I just wanted to remind you of that.

Speaker 2:	Well thank you.

Speaker 1:	All right. Well I look forward to talking to you on Monday and hearing how it goes. 

Speaker 2:	All right, well thank you.